Journals of the Senate
46 Elizabeth II, A.D. 1997, Canada
Journals of the Senate
Issue 33
Tuesday, December 16, 1997
2:00 p.m.
The Honourable Gildas L. Molgat, Speaker
The Members convened were: The Honourable Senators Adams, Andreychuk, Angus, Atkins, Bacon, Beaudoin, Berntson, Bolduc, Bonnell, Bryden, Buchanan, Butts, Callbeck, Carstairs, Chalifoux, Cochrane, Cogger, Cohen, Comeau, Cools, Corbin, DeWare, Di Nino, Doody, Eyton, Fairbairn, Ferretti Barth, Forest, Forrestall, Gauthier, Gigantès, Grafstein, Graham, Grimard, Gustafson, Haidasz, Hays, Hébert, Hervieux-Payette, Jessiman, Johnson, Joyal, Kelleher, Kelly, Kenny, Keon, Kinsella, Kirby, Kolber, Lavoie-Roux, LeBreton, Lewis, Losier-Cool, Lynch-Staunton, Maheu, Meighen, Mercier, Milne, Molgat, Moore, Murray, Nolin, Oliver, Pearson, Pépin, Perrault, Petten, Phillips, Pitfield, Poulin, Rivest, Roberge, Robertson, Robichaud, (L'Acadie-Acadia), Robichaud, (Saint-Louis-de-Kent), Rompkey, Rossiter, St. Germain, Simard, Sparrow, Spivak, Stanbury, Stewart, Stollery, Stratton, Taylor, Tkachuk, Watt, Whelan
PRAYERS
Tribute was paid to the Honourable Senator Petten, who will retire from the Senate on January 28, 1998. Tribute was paid to the Honourable Senator Bonnell, who will retire from the Senate on January 4, 1998.
SENATORS' STATEMENTS
Pursuant to Rule 43(7), the Honourable Senator Tkachuk gave notice that he would raise a question of privilege regarding the publication of the T4127(E), the Payroll Deductions Formulas for Computer Programs, effective January 1, 1998, by the Government of Canada. Pursuant to Rule 43(7), the Honourable Senator Kinsella gave notice that he would raise a question of privilege regarding the publication of the T4127(E), the Payroll Deductions Formulas for Computer Programs, effective January 1, 1998, by the Government of Canada.DAILY ROUTINE OF BUSINESS
Government Notices of Motions
With leave of the Senate, The Honourable Senator Carstairs moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Stanbury:That when the Senate adjourns today, it do stand adjourned until tomorrow, Wednesday, December 17, 1997, at 1:30 p.m.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Tabling of Reports From Inter-Parliamentary Delegations
The Honourable the Speaker tabled the following:Report of the Senate delegation, which travelled to Japan from March 23 to 30, 1997, on the invitation of the President of the House of Councillors of the Japanese Diet.-Sessional Paper No. 1/36-360S.
Report on the visit of the Speaker of the Senate to Mongolia at the invitation of the Chairman of the State Great Hural of Mongolia, from March 31 to April 4, 1997.-Sessional Paper No. 1/36-361S.
ORDERS OF THE DAY
GOVERNMENT BUSINESS
Bills
Third reading of Bill S-4, An Act to amend the Canada Shipping Act (maritime liability).The Honourable Senator Moore moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Ferretti Barth, that the Bill be read the third time.
After debate, The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
The Bill was then read the third time and passed.
Ordered, That a Message be sent to the House of Commons to acquaint that House that the Senate have passed this Bill to which they desire their concurrence.
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With leave, The Senate reverted to Presentation of Reports from Standing or Special Committees. The Honourable Senator Milne, Chair of the Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs, tabled its Fifth Report (Regulations pursuant to the Referendum Act). -Sessional Paper No. 1/36-362S. The Honourable Senator Milne, Chair of the Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs, presented its Sixth Report (Bill C-16, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and the Interpretation Act (powers to arrest and enter dwellings)) without amendment.The Honourable Senator Carstairs moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Milne, that the Bill be placed on the Orders of the Day for a third reading at the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
ORDERS OF THE DAY
GOVERNMENT BUSINESS
Bills
Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Kirby, seconded by the Honourable Senator Joyal, P.C., for the second reading of Bill C-2, An Act to establish the Canada Pension Plan Investment Board and to amend the Canada Pension Plan and the Old Age Security Act and to make consequential amendments to other Acts.After debate, The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
The Bill was then read the second time.
The Honourable Senator Carstairs moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Kirby, that the Bill be referred to a Committee of the Whole, to sit at 2:15 p.m. tomorrow, Wednesday, December 17, 1997, and that all items then on the Order Paper and Notice Paper be deferred until the Committee of the Whole has reported.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
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With leave, The Senate reverted to Government Notices of Motions.With leave of the Senate, The Honourable Senator Carstairs moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Kirby:
That the Cable Public Affairs Channel (CPAC) be authorized to bring television cameras into the Chamber to broadcast the proceedings of the Committee of the Whole on Bill C-2, An Act to establish the Canada Pension Plan Investment Board and to amend the Canada Pension Plan and the Old Age Security Act and to make consequential amendments to other Acts, tomorrow, Wednesday, December 17, 1997, with the least possible disruption of the proceedings.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
ORDERS OF THE DAY
GOVERNMENT BUSINESS
Bills
Orders No. 3 to 5 were called and postponed until the next sitting.Motions
Order No. 1 was called and postponed until the next sitting._______________________________________________________
Ordered, That Order No. 3 under Bills be again called. Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Callbeck, seconded by the Honourable Senator Bacon, for the second reading of Bill C-5, An Act respecting cooperatives.After debate, The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
The Bill was then read the second time.
The Honourable Senator Carstairs moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Bonnell, that the Bill be referred to the Standing Senate Committee on Banking, Trade and Commerce.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
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With leave, The Senate reverted to Presentation of Reports from Standing or Special Committees. The Honourable Senator Bonnell, Chair of the Special Committee of the Senate on Post-Secondary Education, tabled its Final Report.-Sessional Paper No. 1/36-363S.With leave of the Senate, The Honourable Senator Bonnell moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Carstairs, that the Report be placed on the Orders of the Day for consideration later this day.
After debate, The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
ORDERS OF THE DAY
GOVERNMENT BUSINESS
Motions
The Honourable Senator Rompkey, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Petten:WHEREAS section 43 of the Constitution Act, 1982 provides that an amendment to the Constitution of Canada may be made by proclamation issued by the Governor General under the Great Seal of Canada where so authorized by resolutions of the Senate and House of Commons and of the legislative assembly of each province to which the amendment applies;
NOW THEREFORE the Senate resolves that an amendment to the Constitution of Canada be authorized to be made by proclamation issued by His Excellency the Governor General under the Great Seal of Canada in accordance with the schedule hereto.
SCHEDULE
AMENDMENT TO THE CONSTITUTION OF CANADA
1. Term 17 of the Terms of Union of Newfoundland with Canada set out in the Schedule to the Newfoundland Act is repealed and the following substituted therefor:"17.(1) In lieu of section ninety-three of the Constitution Act, 1867, this Term shall apply in respect of the Province of Newfoundland.
(2) In and for the Province of Newfoundland, the Legislature shall have exclusive authority to make laws in relation to education, but shall provide for courses in religion that are not specific to a religious denomination.
(3) Religious observances shall be permitted in a school where requested by parents."
Citation
2. This Amendment may be cited as the Constitution Amendment, year of proclamation (Newfoundland Act).After debate, The Honourable Senator Kinsella moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator DeWare, that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Reports of Committees
Order No. 1 was called and postponed until the next sitting.OTHER BUSINESS
Senate Public Bills
Orders No. 1 to 3 were called and postponed until the next sitting.Reports of Committees
The Order was called to resume debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Rompkey, P.C., seconded by the Honourable Senator Whelan, P.C., for the adoption of the Seventh Report of the Standing Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration (the use of Senate resources by Senator Thompson), presented in the Senate on December 9, 1997.SPEAKER'S RULING
Honourable Senators, yesterday, Monday, December 15, the Honourable Eymard Corbin raised a point of order questioning the authority of the Standing Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration to present its Seventh Report, dated and presented Tuesday, December 9.Senator Corbin characterizes the measures recommended in the Report as disciplinary in nature. Consequently, he believes they involve the privileges of Senator Thompson, a matter beyond the mandate of this Committee. He finds in recommending this action that the Committee has taken upon itself the exclusive power of the full Senate in a matter that is essentially one of privilege. In support of this position, he refers to the requirement for a reference to the Committee on Privileges in Rule 86(1)(f)(ii). In addition, he submits that the power of the Internal Economy Committee to see to the administration of the Senate does not extend to the actions of individual Senators.
Speaking in support of the Report and the actions of the Internal Economy Committee, Senator Kenny pointed out that the Committee was merely reporting recommendations to the Senate for its consideration and decision. He noted that the Internal Economy Committee possesses statutory powers under the Parliament of Canada Act.
Senator St. Germain then intervened to draw the attention to Rule 43(1) which states that it the duty of every Senator to defend the privileges of the Senate and of all Senators. He also expressed concern about the possibility of developing a vigilante mentality.
In assessing the powers of the Internal Economy Committee, Senator Bolduc maintained there is an important distinction between its power to manage the Senate as a body and the power to manage each individual Senator. He questioned whether the Internal Economy Committee has the right to judge, prejudge or evaluate the performance of any particular Senator.
Finally, Senator Carstairs spoke to urge the Chair to rule as quickly as possible. I have reviewed the comments that were made yesterday and I am prepared to rule on the point of order.
Honourable Senators, the Standing Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration is unique among Senate committees in that it has a statutory mandate. I do not interpret the law, but must, of course, take note of it. Section 19.3 of the Parliament of Canada Act provides that the Committee may act on all financial and administrative matters respecting the Senate, its premises, its services, its staff and the members of the Senate. Powers, however, are to be exercised subject to the rules, direction and control of the Senate, as provided in subsection 19.1(4).
Under the Rules of the Senate, the Committee has a special power, possessed by only one other Committee, to act on its own initiative. The other Committee that has a power to act on its own initiative is the Standing Committee on Privileges, Standing Rules and Orders, whose participation in the study of this issue is mentioned in the Report. In the words of Rule 86(1)(g), the Internal Economy Committee is "... authorized on its own initiative to consider all matters of a financial or administrative nature relating to the internal management of the Senate."
The Internal Economy Committee decided to use its power to act on its own initiative to look into and consider a particular matter. Its Report is limited to recommendations that would temporarily suspend Senator Thompson's access to Senate resources, clearly a matter of a financial or administrative nature. The Report does not reflect upon Senator Thompson or his conduct. The recommendations are careful to preserve the Senator's ability to travel to Ottawa to safeguard his privileges to attend, to speak and to vote. They are careful to preserve his ability to regain access to Senate resources as soon as he sees fit to apply.
The Committee's recommendations as presented in this Report modify the application of general policies relating to the resource entitlements provided to all Senators. It must be noted, however, that the Committee is not undertaking this action on its own authority. Indeed, it has placed its recommendations before the full Senate for consideration as it must. Under this procedure, the suspension of Senator Thompson's access to resources will be determined by no less a body than the one charged with the protection of his privileges.
Honourable Senators, in these circumstances, it seems to me that the Committee has simply exercised its right to act on its own initiative and consider a matter of a financial or administrative nature. The recommendations seem carefully limited to matters concerning Senate resources.
The only mention of attendance is a factual and neutral reference to a public record which can explain why action of the kind being proposed is appropriate. The participation of the Standing Committee on Privileges, Standing Rules and Orders noted in the Report only serves, to my mind, to underline the respect that each committee is obviously showing for the mandate of the other in this area where mandates can overlap.
It is precisely because the Report is essentially about resources, and not about attendance, that I conclude that it does not involve a question of privilege. Had the Report reflected critically on the character of Senator Thompson, it would have triggered in my mind the privilege concerns invoked by Senator Corbin.
As to whether the power of the Internal Economy Committee is limited to the adoption and administration of general policies, to the exclusion of decisions relating to individual Senators, I know of no such limitation. On the contrary, I suspect that such a limitation would not be beneficial. In fact, it could impair the ability of the Committee to help individual Senators by providing resources in appropriate circumstances.
In my view, the Committee is limited in its mandate to financial and administrative matters, whether of a general or a particular application, and this limitation has been respected in this Report.
During his intervention yesterday, Senator St. Germain drew the attention of all honourable Senators to their duty to preserve the privileges of the Senate and of individual Senators. I thank Senator Corbin for giving Honourable Senators a chance to look into, and reflect on, what this Report does and does not do.
I rule the Report to be in order.
The question being put on the motion of the Honourable Senator Rompkey, P.C., seconded by the Honourable Senator Whelan, P.C., for the adoption of the Seventh Report of the Standing Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration, it was adopted. Consideration of the Second Report of the Standing Senate Committee on Agriculture and Forestry (budget-study on the present state of agriculture in Canada), presented in the Senate on December 9, 1997.
The Honourable Senator Gustafson moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Cohen, that the Report be adopted.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted. Consideration of the Third Report of the Standing Senate Committee on Agriculture and Forestry (budget-study on the present state of forestry in Canada), presented in the Senate on December 9, 1997.
The Honourable Senator Gustafson moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Comeau, that the Report be adopted.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Other
Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Fairbairn, P.C., seconded by the Honourable Senator LeBreton:That, in the opinion of this House, the government should consider the request of the Famous Five Foundation to honour the memory of Emily Murphy, Nellie McClung, Irene Parlby, Louise McKinney and Henrietta Muir Edwards, known as the Famous Five, by allowing a statue commemorating them to be placed on Parliament Hill.
After debate, The Honourable Senator Kenny moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Fairbairn, P.C., that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted. Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Kenny, seconded by the Honourable Senator Nolin:
That Senator Andrew Thompson be ordered to attend the Senate in his place when the Senate resumes sitting in February 1998 following the Christmas adjournment;
That, should he fail to attend, the matter of his continuing absence be referred to the Standing Senate Committee on Privileges, Standing Rules and Orders for the purpose of determining whether his absence constitutes a contempt of the Senate;
That, if the Committee is obliged to undertake this study, it be authorized to examine and report upon any and all matters relating to attendance in the Senate and how it specifically applies in the case of Senator Thompson; and
That the Committee report its findings and any possible recommendations within two weeks from the day the matter is referred to the Committee.
After debate, The question being put on the motion, it was adopted. Orders No. 8 (inquiry), 3 and 1 (motions) were called and postponed until the next sitting.
QUESTIONS OF PRIVILEGE
With leave of the Senate, The Questions of Privilege of which the Honourable Senators Tkachuk and Kinsella gave notice earlier this day were held over until tomorrow._______________________________________________________
Consideration of the Final Report of the Special Committee of the Senate on Post-Secondary Education, tabled in the Senate earlier this day.After debate, The Honourable Senator Lavoie-Roux moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Rossiter, that further debate on the consideration of the Report be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
ADJOURNMENT
The Honourable Senator Graham, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Bonnell:That the Senate do now adjourn.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.